tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2229462780883907840.post3194238053096849634..comments2023-12-09T17:01:39.079-08:00Comments on Past Tense, Present Progressive: Church: To Go Or Not To Go?Latebloomerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18261932798380141520noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2229462780883907840.post-37423484249618195502013-07-10T07:43:49.649-07:002013-07-10T07:43:49.649-07:00"Church is not a place where I can experience..."Church is not a place where I can experience genuine emotion."<br />While I'm a hardcore atheist and materialist (7 on the scale of Dawkins) my female counterpart is a muslima and used to be board member of her mosque. So I join her at Id-ul-Fitr every year.<br />One time I was deeply moved, when the minister told how Islam demanded from its followers to set a good example, to be tolerant and to be constructive when building a society that offers a meaningful place for everybody.MNbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2229462780883907840.post-67426982170829305942013-06-24T13:11:10.797-07:002013-06-24T13:11:10.797-07:00There are a lot of churches out there where the pe...There are a lot of churches out there where the people and the pastors believe that all you need is God and a Bible, and no other "human" resources. I have experience in a lot of other churches too though, including churches that had more of a "scholarly" bent. Those churches would discuss cultural context and translation issues in a very minimal and "safe" way, but not enough information to be interesting to someone who grew up reading about such things. I'm sure many of the pastors know far more than they ever share in church, but there seems to be an unspoken rule that some topics are not ok in church because they will cause too much doubt. Things like translation difficulties, tampering with historical manuscripts, manuscript differences, lack of a clear application outside of the target culture, etc., are all potential sources of doubt, and a pastor's job seems to be to increase faith, not educate.<br /><br />As an ironic side note, in my experience, pastors who are the biggest topic/question avoiders are often the loudest proclaimers of their edginess and willingness to tell the "hard" truths of Christianity.Latebloomerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18261932798380141520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2229462780883907840.post-24409194126302311722013-06-24T04:55:30.158-07:002013-06-24T04:55:30.158-07:00I know that this is exactly your complaint, but wh...I know that this is exactly your complaint, but what the heck were they saying at your churches? If they aren't talking about the cultural context, meanings we've lost or translation issues, what does that leave to say about the Bible passages they're (presumably) reading?Christinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03567549830059823566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2229462780883907840.post-6346054522613635422013-05-06T14:18:56.866-07:002013-05-06T14:18:56.866-07:00There are a lot of things that I could say, but re...There are a lot of things that I could say, but really, for me, the issue is that I would go to a church that was based on what Jesus taught. All the churches I know of? Not so concerned with what Jesus taught. Jesus was all into inclusion and serving people on the fringes of society. He celebrated and appreciated differences in people and was not into gossip or rules made up for the sake of having rules. No one can show me where Jesus said being gay is bad and/or dangerous or that we should only really love people who believe the exact same thing we do. It seems to me that there is a lot of understanding about the whole Jesus set us free from the old testament rules things and Jesus was all about loving each other and kindness. I don't see much kindness in organized religion. This is a problem. <br /><br />Love your neighbor as yourself is pretty much the only sermon topic ever needed. Because a lot of people don't love themselves, and view loving themselves as selfish. And a lot of people don't love their neighbors. My theory is that we loved ourselves more, we behave more kindly toward other people because we aren't measuring our own worth by what we see (or don't see) in them.Juliannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06250723359168487104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2229462780883907840.post-24903298593064902702012-08-23T07:03:53.906-07:002012-08-23T07:03:53.906-07:00I had so many thoughts and feelings as I read this...I had so many thoughts and feelings as I read this . . . for myself, I have journeyed to a place where I feel I can express my spirituality in a liberal liturgical church community that offers meaning to me and my family on many different levels. While there is no question what the church's official creed is, there is an openness and acceptance of other beliefs that is nurturing, not challenging. Sometimes the younger families will get "Baptist envy" and want our church to do the cool, hip, enticing activities that the dominant Bible belt churches offer to "bring souls to Christ" or whatever. Frank Schaefer had a blog with a similar theme. I'm usually the voice of dissent in that conversation. I no longer want church to be primarily social and fun. It is contemplative and spiritual, in my opinion. Children, I believe, have an innate openness to the spiritual and I want that to be fostered, not drowned out by fun and games and strong dogma. I love the models of belief where the searcher has to seek out the way--there will be mentors, but only for those who ask.<br /><br />I would probably be Unitarian but for me the symbolism of the Episcopal church I attend has powerful meaning and I don't see it as exclusive. When I make it to church, I'm almost always able to enter into a centering, contemplative experience, even if I'm just sitting in the church library browsing books while my daughter is in the sacred space they've created for children. I also feel the group experience offers something valuable, even though it has the potential to cause harm as well. (I should say that our church also has many outreach type endeavors in the community.) <br /><br />So for me, church is still meaningful and I view it as important for my children. On the other hand, I completely see your point of view. I just had the generic Bible-belt experience, but with plenty of exposure to other ideas. I know how much I've struggled with that alone, so I can only imagine what a more extreme childhood would have done to me. <br /><br /> Elizabeth Jenningshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03025208652139849945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2229462780883907840.post-18092791414851111192012-08-11T21:23:49.939-07:002012-08-11T21:23:49.939-07:00Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts; it defin...Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts; it definitely sounds like you've found a great place to let your child learn about Christianity as he/she grows up!<br /><br />I really liked your explanation of your mental process, especially the phrase "intrinsic, cynical non-expectation towards others". For me, I start out feeling cynical like that, and then each week of failed connections builds on the previous ones, until I just can't deal with that group of people any more because it makes me way too depressed. But to be fair, I think that I'm more sensitive than average to feelings of rejection, probably due to my past social difficulties from being homeschooled (which I wrote about here: http://pasttensepresentprogressive.blogspot.com/2012/03/homeschooled-girls-and-trash-cans.html). Maybe one day I'll be better able to manage my feelings about the situation, and that might be a good time to try to find a church that is focused on non-judgmental love and serving, like yours.<br /><br />I really appreciate your comment...thanks for sharing!Latebloomerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18261932798380141520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2229462780883907840.post-36293754482470759842012-08-08T21:28:28.575-07:002012-08-08T21:28:28.575-07:00I couldn't understand where you're coming ...I couldn't understand where you're coming from more! I hate the manufactured emotions, the lack of connection, etc. Not to mention that having come from a very academic fundamentalist background where theological books literally lined the walls, intellectually I can discuss the finer points of almost any doctrine and church history with anyone, meaning I don't "learn" anything when I go either. And reading your post I really realize just how lucky I am with the church that me and husband attend. We're not the most diligent of church goers as we're both in the healthcare world with bizarre and random schedules, but we try. The truly interesting aspect to me after reading your post is that a big reason we go and plan on staying there is for all their youth ministry stuff. The entire church's focus, and especially in their kid/youth programs, is ministry/love/service emphasis. Particularly coming from a judgmental fundamentalist background, I can only sit back most days that we go and wish with all my being that I'd learned to love and know what love was like that is clearly evident from the pastoral staff to the congregation, the teens in the youth groups to each other, and the general atmosphere of the place. Not to mention that diversity (ethnic and socio-economical) is something they actually actively pursue as well. We just had our first baby, and while I wouldn't step a toe into the vast majority of the churches in our area for all the reasons you mentioned (and more), even if I don't always get something out the sermon for myself, it's the sort of Christian environment I want my daughter to experience.<br /><br />On a personal note, I gave up expecting any sort of true friendship to arise from any manufactured church "connection", even where we currently go. I think most of the people who are friends in any group, are and were friends outside of that activity/group first and didn't forge their relationship within that setting. As cynical as it might sound, I found that if I go church and church functions purely for spiritual benefit and don't expect any social outcome, I don't come away feeling bitter. I learned my lesson the hard way on that one and although I've been able to set aside a lot of those expectations, I still carry around an intrinsic, cynical non-expectation towards others. Any church service, any small group I go to, I go to for me, as selfish as that sounds. If I somehow in the process can be a means to help someone else in a spiritual/emotional/non-tangible sense, great! But I don't necessarily expect anything back, and certainly none of those tangible things (like the casseroles or moving).<br /><br />I know I've rambled somewhat, but I think you kind of said it yourself - the good church community you always wanted to have. Because you know what, even if you went to one of the churches in your area, if it's not that experience you've wished for, and if they all fall into that conservative non-diverse judgmental mold, your little boy is far better off with you teaching him how to love and care and have compassion and how God loves him instead simply standing there waiting to punish sinners. I fully recognize just how extremely fortunate we are to have the church that we do, and I would so rather stay home on Sundays and teach our daughter what the compassion of Jesus is actually about and how to show it to the people in her life rather than her having exposed to and overcome the sadly typical "Christian" perspective you describe in your last paragraph.Jade Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15648438406466284755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2229462780883907840.post-16917528500552456542012-08-07T12:20:21.888-07:002012-08-07T12:20:21.888-07:00Your experience was basically identical to mine --...Your experience was basically identical to mine -- being introverted, feeling the falseness of emotional/social displays during worship, the watered-down sermons that never challenged or educated (almost all my learning of scripture was from a free-form bible study I did with three people at home).<br /><br />I'm in the same place as you really, in that church for me has no value either spiritually or socially. Sad, but I'd rather not just go through the motions for no reason but to satisfy those who'd judge me for 'forsaking the gathering of the saints'.Paihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14108169893140762249noreply@blogger.com